Episode 352
The Parallels between Paranormal and UAP Investigations
Where ghosts, aliens, and high-strangeness collide…
In this episode of Pursuit of the Paranormal, Greg and Ash dive head-first into the fascinating overlap between ghost hunting and UAP investigation — two worlds that seem miles apart, yet share the same patterns of contact, communication, and unexplained intelligence.
We also discuss the history of EVP and Estes and we look at CE5 and seances. All have a very similar theme.
We are also joined by Sarah from Twinvestigate UK who talks to us about Supernatural Sisterhood. This is a new group created to empower women in the Paranormal community.
www.linktree.com/pursuitoftheparanormal
Transcript
It was almost a truck with mud. I don't know what it was. It was a flying saucer or what it was. It wasn't an airplane. It was not an airplane. It was down awfully low.
Sarah:You're listening to Pursuit of the Paranormal.
Greg:Podcast with your hosts, Ash Ellis and Greg Tomlinson. Hey Ash, how's it going?
Ash:Very good, very good. Fresh off our weekend in Hull.
Greg:Yes.
Ash:This past weekend.
Greg:Yes. And that was really good.
Ash:It was really good. It was. We gave a talk at Power Chat UK, the guys from PSI's first paranormal conference in aid of kids with cancer charity.
Greg:Yes. Yeah. And they made a load of money as well, which is really cool.
So check out their page for definite because that was the first, I think of many going forward and it. It was really fab. There was a lot of people that we knew there talking.
There's a lot of people, we didn't know who they were, like from our sort of circle of paranormal.
Ash:Yeah, yeah.
Greg:So it was really cool and that the place is amazing.
Ash:Nice hotel. Mad. Mad.
Greg:Big hotel, cave, castle. They're really cool place. Steeped in a lot of history, I think.
And it's definitely somewhere I'd like to go back to even just have a wander around because it's super cool anymore. So this tiny little village in Hull, which is for anybody from down south, it's miles away at all.
Ash:It's like right on the side of the country. Even for me coming from like up north, it's still like it was two and a half hours or something getting there.
Greg:It's mad. It's mad. And weirdly anybody listens to podcast and has heard me talk about.
om the whole ufo Society from: Ash:That's mad.
Greg:I don't even know if the guy. What the guy's up to any. Sean Tierney is name is. And he was heading up the group.
the Internet. Fast forward to: Ash:Yes.
Greg:How mad's that?
Ash:Yeah, yeah, that's mad. And it's like I said, great weekend. Meeting people we met online in person, making new friends that we're going to be doing some stuff with.
Greg:Yeah.
Ash:Although disappointingly there's what I think there's like six or seven speakers. And the event was live streamed. You could watch it on their Facebook throughout the day for free.
And they had Internet issues during our speech, during our talk. So our talk wasn't A, wasn't live streamed and B, wasn't then recorded to watch back.
Every other speak speaker was recorded, just not ours, which is pretty, pretty good.
Greg:It just means we've got to speak again somewhere about it.
Ash:Yes. Make sure it gets recorded properly.
Greg:And it was really good talk, I thought. I think it was received well because it was a night about paranormal and everybody was talking about their experiences.
A load of people talked about their captures. The girls, to investigate, they showed their top five captures, which was awesome to see.
Then you had like Paranormal Inc. Jack, Liam, Paul talking about Paranormal Inc. And what they're doing with their group and team with their events. And then there's a few other teams talking about their captures.
But we were talking about the parallels between a paranormal investigation and a UAP investigation.
Ash:Yes. And that is what we're going to talk about in today's episode.
Greg:Yes.
Ash:Kind of talking about the stuff we talked about in our talk.
Greg:But before we do.
Ash:Yep.
Greg:We've got a very special guest joining us from Investigate and anybody that listens to podcast knows who this person is because she's my partner, Sarah, and she's going to be talking about a new movement that is taking and gaining momentum now in the paranormal world. And following.
It's come at a really good time because following some very recent events at the time of this going out there where certain aspects of the paranormal and certain people, certain people in the paranormal community, their behavior has come to light and it's very vile, for one of a better phrase. Yeah. It felt an opportune time to get Sarah on. Hey, Sarah. So what is the Supernatural Sisterhood?
Sarah:So the Supernatural Sisterhood is a movement that we started with off the back of Festival of the Unexplained, where a group of us got together to empower and recognize women in this field. It's to celebrate women and to push us and to stand up where we might have previously been knocked down.
And it's an area, a safe space where women can be women without fear of judgment are knockbacks.
Greg:So I mean, coming from a male point of view, I can see that women are underrepresented in the, the paranormal and I fully support this group. So what is the aim of the group?
Sarah:To give women a voice because we've, we've all had some Kind of personal experience in this where we've either not been taken seriously, we've been missed off things, we've been not given the same opportunity the first time round. It's to give people a bit of a backbone really. And, and I know we've all been thinking it is.
We've all had these worries and concerns about opportunities. We weren't given this because maybe it's because I'm a woman or I'm allowed enough or there's too many men doing this.
And I think it's to give them a voice to say, no, no, that's not okay. And actually you need to be brave enough to speak up and put yourself forward.
And you shouldn't be scared to acknowledge that there might be a slight gender bias.
Ash:So, I mean, it's the same in the UFO field. There's lots. It's very, very male, particularly all the male dominated.
That's one that we tried as UFO identifying to kind of combat and bring in younger people, bring in more females, more people color, stuff like that to make it more diverse. So it's a great thing that you're doing. That's what kind of what was that happened that kind of kicked off this movement.
Sarah:So it came off the back of Festival of the Unexplained and it was. Somebody had written a review of the Saturday. There were a lot of speakers that day and predominantly male speakers.
And everybody got a mention in that review except myself and Emma and to invest to investigate. And we called it out and asked where are we in this review?
And the person actually came forward and good on them for admitting it and said, I'm really sorry, I did overlook you because you are pink Poppy. Basically because we are. We don't fit their norm. We don't fit what they deem as legit enough to get a segment in that review.
And so obviously a lot of women who attended festival then got together and we were like, that's not acceptable.
And that we, we need to be taken seriously and we need to be raise our voices a little bit and stamp our feet a bit louder and just be like, we are just as good and deserving as men. Unfortunately, it's. Whether we realize it or not, it is a very androcentric field that we're in.
And we just need to acknowledge that there are more and more women who are just as loud, if not sometimes louder than. Than the men. It's not all men, don't get me wrong. It's not. But we've all had an experience as a Woman that men don't have.
Ash:It's mad because that kind of comment that, that that person told you is kind of how the whole pink thing started with, with you guys like sort of not being taken seriously here on the like girls like out fingers, you're wearing pink.
Sarah:Yeah.
Ash:It's kind of sad that all this time later still getting the same, the same comments from people.
Sarah:Yeah. And our talk at festival was actually about how we don't get taken seriously because we wear pink.
And it's the reason we were left off that review was because we weren't taken seriously because we were pink. So it goes to show you that we kind of fell on deaf ears as well.
So we've already set back, we're already on the back burner, on the back foot because no one's really listening to our talk. But they're there, they're looking and they're watching, but they're not paying attention to what we're saying, but they're watching.
So what does that tell you?
Like just, you know, people need to listen to what we're actually saying and don't just disregard us because we are pink and bubbly and not only us, but everyone just because we're a woman. And I sometimes feel like that is, that is the issue. And if the men won't celebrate us, the women are going to celebrate the women.
And that is the supernatural sisterhood, really in a nutshell.
Greg:So I must say that recently I've seen an explosion of powerful women in the paranormal. Most definitely. And some of the best accounts and some of the best conversations we've had on the podcast have been with women.
So it's mad to think that there is this, this kind of underlying subconscious bias that people should be looking for men in the paranormal or like Ash just mentioned, in the UFO field.
And I know predominantly in the UFO field and the paranormal, it's always been some of the top stars that you see on TV are always men, which is wrong because some of the best and empathetic people in this field are women.
So it's amazing to see this group of people coming together recently and also the supernatural sisterhood coming together and forming a group where like minded people can have a safe space and empower women within this industry.
Sarah:Yeah, and, and whether you realize it or not, on the tv, women are often portrayed as like the sidekick, the, the kind of adds information. Isn't the person who leads that information. They're always in the background.
You see it on a poster, you've got the man at the front and the women behind him. And it's like that's not how it is. We, we've kind of, we're, it's inbuilt within us.
It's been ingrained in our cultural upbringing in this field that women sit behind. Women are not the leaders and actually we can be. And that's, we're just kind of recognizing that that's, that needs to change.
That that view on people need to. On women needs to change.
And the women that you do see that are prominent today and are well known and successful in this field, I can guarantee you they will have had to have jumped through twice as many hoops as an equivalent man will have done. And, and it's the same across all industries.
But for some reason, because this is such a heavily male dominated industry, it's scary to speak up and say that it's like, oh, what backlash am I gonna get?
Because I've said this and, but I wouldn't in any other field but because this one's so male dominated, it is scary as a woman speaking up there and, and raising your voice. So hopefully if we get all get together and we, we all have realized that we're all on the same page, that we can just, we can be a bit braver.
And as we've noticed recently with lots of recent events that we won't delve into is it takes one person to speak up and the rest will follow. And so we're going to take that and carry on with the supernatural.
Sisterhood is one woman says that she doesn't feel heard so the rest will shout for her like it's, it's what we're aiming to achieve. And I do feel like we're well on the way to that and we will achieve a little bit more recognition for women.
Greg:Definitely. So where can people find the supernatural sister?
Sarah:Currently you can find us on Facebook. Whether we go to other social media platforms, I do not know, but Facebook for now is the, the main field that you can find us on.
Greg:Cool. Thank you very much, Sarah. And it's interesting because as our, as we've.
We're in a relationship, I can see and we have conversations all the time about this sort of thing and I'm close to see how it affects you guys and, and the frustrations that you have. So I think this is awesome.
Sarah:And, and another quick example is like we have the paranormal equipment company and you see it yourself in, in the language that's used. Someone will message beyond our ordinary and they'll go, hi mate. And it's like, oh, like, how do you know it's. You're assuming that. That's quite.
Because you don't really say that to a woman, do you? Or hi, Greg will be the opening. Hi, Greg. And it's like you're assuming that Greg takes the lead. Like you're assuming that it's run by men.
Because generally you don't say, hi, mate to a woman jet off the first bat, do you? But I just. It's that gentle language as well that affects us and that it's just those subtle biases that knock us back.
So you see it obviously, quite a bit. And we're just. We don't get the same opportunities. We really do not.
Greg:So if you're affected by this and you want to join this movement, get over to Facebook, Supernatural Sisterhood search for it, or go to Twinvestigate uk. They've just put a post up and there's a nice big link to the. The group there. Join and get behind.
Sarah:See you over there, ladies.
Greg:Absolutely. Thank you very much, Sarah.
Sarah:Thank you for having me on.
Greg:So let's get into it.
Ash:Awesome.
So, yeah, like we said, episode today is going to be based around a talk that we gave at Power Chat, which was titled From Ghost to Stars, the parallels between paranormal and UAP investigation.
Greg:And we're fortunate enough that when we talk, there's me from the paranormal side originally and you from the UAP and ufo, as it was back then, when we first started the podcast and UAP side and when we first got together, we were. We were talking like almost like separate things. That UAPS and, um, and the paranormal were separate.
Ash:Yeah.
Greg:But as we've come, we've. We're now this will be episode 352.
We've spoken to hundred, literally hundreds of people now about, yeah, their paranormal experiences and their UFO experiences. And a lot of the time these people have had both.
So it always seems like there is a bit of a crossover that somebody's had a paranormal experience early on in life, then they go on to have UFO experiences. There's been a mixture. Some people have one or the other, but a lot of people have both.
And we're fortunate enough that we have been on UFO investigations, which you've got sky watches and you've got CE5, which we'll come on to. And we. We do the paranormal investigations.
And we also were fortunate enough to go out with Danny Moss into Delamere Forest, where we kind of done a bit of a hybrid mix of both of those investigations.
Ash:Yeah. And it was kind of through doing that.
And some of the results we had is where we first started thinking, because we talked a lot about, like you say, the crossover, the paranormal or being one thing, and it's something that a lot of people talk about is sort of the phenomena, whatever it is having a lot of crossover. It's not these separate camps I used to think it was. Whereas we're specifically talking about the investigation side of this.
So not just so we got the experiences of having like UFO sighting or podcast experience. It's the parallels, the crossover on the investigation side of things, which I've not ever heard anyone really talk about before.
Greg:And it was part of the prep for the talk that you then directed me to listen to a particular podcast. And it was mad.
Ash:It was amazing. Yeah.
Greg:And now I've listened to the previous episode as well, where they're talking about spirit boxes and that's a whole nother thing we can talk about. But that particular episode was talking about the Estes method.
Ash:Yes.
Greg:And what made it so special, Ash.
Ash:Is that obviously people know, people probably listening will know what the S's method is. You've done it themselves or seen it on the many TV shows, or tick tocks live streams using spirit box with noise canceling headphones, blindfold.
So you've got one person sort of listening to the spirit box, trying to hear the words or sentences come through and the other people are asking the questions that the person listening to the spirit box can't hear and hoping that because the person listening can't influence the answers because they don't know what's being asked, so they're just saying the words that come through to them. And it's a method that we have utilized a lot in the past five years.
Greg:Probably my favorite experiment, 100% mine as well.
Ash:But what a lot of people don't know is that obviously it's very, very heavily associated with the paranormal.
However, it's got a big history in UFO investigation as well, which I didn't fully know about until, like I say during the prep for this, it's kind of open my eyes a little bit. You know, we have done it on UFO investigations before. We actually know the history side of it.
Greg:First time we met Cannock Chase at Castle Ring, we actually did the Estes method in the middle of a field. Not even like a haunted house, for want of a better phrase.
We actually did it in a known UFO hospital without really understanding the history of Estes. So it was cool.
Ash:So, yeah, so it's kind of COVID the Estes off a little bit in terms of the creation of it, how it all came about. And everybody's watched the Hellier series or listened to the Haunted Objects podcast with Greg Newkirk, Daniel Kirk and Connor Randall.
You probably might know some of this stuff.
But the Essence Method was created by Conor Randall and Carl Pfeiffer and they were actually working as kind of paranormal tour guides and like investigation hosts at the Stanley Hotel made famous in the Shining movie. So that hotel, very, very famous hotel in Estus Park, Colorado.
They developed this method of sort of from the spirit box and kind of think, how can we make this better? How can we kind of sort of make it a bit more legit?
So they developed this method, changed it, obviously, trial and error, did different things without the blindfold, just headphones, then introduced the blindfold to kind of isolate the senses. So you're purely concentrating on the words coming through. And he had some mad kind of results literally straight away when they were doing this.
And you can listen to the clips on YouTube and stuff from years ago when he first started doing it. And one of the first people they were talking to whilst doing this was a vampire that lived on Saturn. I was coming through on the spirit box.
So that's not a ghost that's coming through. It's obviously something very, very random. But the main sort of message is.
And both Conor Randall's commentary, Randall and Carl Pfeiffer both fairly say that spirit box or the SS method can be used in a ghost investigation, in a UFO investigation. Whatever you want to try and communicate with, you can. There's nothing to say. It has to be.
Try to talk with spirits of dead people, like radios have long been used to try and communicate with other planets with potential spaceships that are out there. Seti, the famous SETI thing has always used radio waves and stuff like that.
People back in the decades ago trying to use the radio signals, try and communicate. And they would always.
Because it is radio waves, they were thinking they'll get a message from outer space rather than thinking this is a spirit of a dead person. So, I mean, yeah, yes, the method and I mean we can. Have we got a clip that we can use that we can play.
Greg:I'm sure we can. We've got. So, interestingly, we've got our clip.
Ash:Yeah.
Greg:That we can use. And it's interesting to note that some people probably think the SS method's been around for decades.
loped, invented, developed in:But. Yeah, so we'll. We'll play the clip now of us doing the Estes Method. This is a Delamere Forest and weirdly, it's me.
Well, not weirdly it's me, but it's me. This is.
Ash:You are weird, Greg.
Greg:I am weird. This is the end of the night as well. This was right at the end. We were at the car park or nearly at the car park.
And so I do niest this method and I'm hearing this horrendous noise and it comes. You can hear me talking about that. Like a crackling interference noise. Not the.
If anybody who's done spirit box will know exactly what sound I'm all about. But it was like a. Like an electrostatic thing and you'll hear, well, we'll play it first and then we could discuss it afterwards. So. Whoa. What?
I don't know how to describe what I've just seen. Ah, the interference again, I've just had. I can show you on the footage.
Ash:I've just had two lights. Both of them just drift across in the sky or.
Greg:Yeah, like just drift bright ones.
Ash:I don't know.
Greg:Experience is horrid. I don't know how to describe what I've just seen.
Ash:Horrible. Did ask him to show him in sky.
Sarah:Can you do that again in the sky? Can you make those lights?
Ash:Watch very carefully as I pan the camera and capture two balls of light shooting across the sky. These are not insects. It is not lens flare or anything on the lens of the camera.
And at the exact moment, the H4 microphone captures interference which Greg also hears whilst conducting the SS method. This is what we call triangulated evidence. Oh, I don't know.
Greg:Experience is horrid. I don't know how to describe what I've just seen.
Ash:Horrible. Cool.
Greg:So that is our clip and the.
Ash:Video of that is on our social media. You want to watch the. The full video version of it?
Greg:Yes. Put it up this week. And it's across social media at the moment. So, yeah, check it out.
So you can hear me say that I can hear horrible interference sound and it isn't the Estes Method spirit box sound. Then Danny Moss spots something and films two anomalies going over.
Ash:Yeah.
Greg:And his audio on his camera, his sort of microphone thing, picks up the crackling sound and that.
Ash:It's like a static.
Greg:Yeah. And that's the exact same sound that I hear.
Ash:And that's at the same time as these two objects or anomalies in the sky were passing overhead, which is crazy. So we got like that's captioning you see on the foot.
So we've got the capture on the, on the video capture on the, on the mic and you were hearing it and you had no idea what was going on because you got blindfolded headphones. Oh sure. All you know is this crack, this weird noise in your ear.
Whereas we've got it UFOs in the sky, we got the crackling like interference on another mic all, all at the same time. And this is when we had asked for things to happen.
We, we had asked for the lights to show themselves for whatever spaceships might be up there to show themselves to us. Cuz this was part of a C5 kind of experiment. They would take it back to kind of doing a parallel of UFO and ghost investigations.
C5 is the meditative, won't go much too much into detail on it. I'm sure you know what it is but it's human initiated contact experience where you get into a medive state.
You, you play these, this, these tones out and you're sending your energies up into space and your location and you're asking for whatever's up there, whatever entities up there to show themselves to you in the sky. So that's what the investigation is that we were doing.
And it's through the course of doing this in Delamere Forest with you guys and Danny Moss and Natalie from UFO identified that kind of thing. This is what you do in a paranormal investigation.
You're calling out, you're asking for whatever entities are there to let, let you know that there to make a noise, to show themselves, to communicate with the devices. And you, you're doing the same thing but just in one case you're asking for a spirit to do it.
In another case you're asking for an alien or UFO to do it. But you're asking the same questions and he's using the same methods effectively and.
Greg:It'S, it's something that we covered off, off as well.
At the weekend that we'd done a seance at Priest Cottage and we got into that sort of calm state where we started calling out which like everybody does on a paranormal investigation you go if there's anyone in the room let us know. And we did that at Priest Cottage. We, we stripped everything back and we just, we sat around the table.
We had some crystals all lined up with some candles, some candles.
Ash:We were holding hands.
Greg:We were, we were around a table, we were holding hands and we just spent time getting in tune with our surroundings. Which C5 is exactly the same thing like you just said, playing some music and getting into that. That zone and that.
That calmness and trying to sort of almost be at one with your surroundings again. And then you calling out and saying as part of the C5 is like if you're. If you're out there, let us, let us know.
And it's, it's weird that we've never really put it together before. I don't know why we never have. I know we've sort of.
I think we've flirted with the idea before where we've sort of said that there's similarities but not in terms of. Actually there is. They're exactly the same. And I know we, we. We did speak about it a while ago that it's. They are exactly the same and it's. It's mad.
And then the Estes method that.
Why does it need to be a haunted thing when we know now that the origins of it were this vampire from Saturn which in itself is mad because you've got this weird foreign non human intelligence. And I say foreign from off planet. Essentially Saturn calling himself a vampire or themselves a vampire which is neither a spirit or an alien really.
It's just this cryptid type thing. I don't know whether you mean.
Ash:Yeah, I mean it's a very earthly thing anyway without me and what aliens it.
If there's aliens on Saturn but they have vampires with that way it came from initially this Bram Stoker could get communicate with some vampires from Saturn. That's where Dracula came from.
Greg:Yeah.
Ash:But like. And in both these cases. So we did the seance. Like I say very traditional going back, turn it back.
We had no other devices apart from like one camera on us and the CCTV in the room. Nothing else with us. Just basically us using our energies. I mean the C5 and we got mad results with both of them.
Like it kicked off at the Priest Cottage Mental. Absolutely. That was absolutely crazy night of activity straight away from doing that seance. Yeah, but in that. In the room with us we had.
Laughing A man's Life. We had lots of knocks, we had people upstairs, we had a chair kicked over. Yep, lots of, lots of things. So we've been.
t's a bit like activity. Your:And it kicked off and the. The night was full of. Still happening again. We did the C5. That's how we started the night with this. Like a seance, this meditation, meditative state.
And we had all sorts happening again. But in the past that nothing happened where we've not done that at the start of the investigation.
Greg:And we were almost stripped right back during the CE5 that we. There was me, you, Nat. There was Danny and Alice, his partner. And we're in the middle of.
The middle of Delamere, like the kind of place that you would. You could get lost, if you see what I mean. And we're there with literally a couple of handheld cameras.
We've got the Beats pill speaker thing, Bluetooth speaker playing. And that was it really. And got a couple of cameras set up just to capture the moment. But we weren't teched up.
Ash:Danny actually had.
Greg:A cause meal.
Ash:Yeah. Is it that radio.
Greg:Radio waves or radioact, like radio thing.
Ash:Is it radioact like radioactive measurer? I can't hear what it's called.
Greg:But anyway, we'll put the clip up as well. Yeah.
Ash:You had to see that clip on the Social be explained a bit more than I can explain it. But what happened is this was early on in the night before the last clip. And we just finished this getting into the state for the CE5.
And we'd seen again caught on camera, one of the static cams caught this object in the sky that can't work out what it was. And literally it was like five, six seconds later, there's a massive hit on the gauss meter.
Greg:Yeah.
Ash:Like off the scan, you can hear it going off. Danny's like, what. What the f. Like this is gonna happen at the same time as.
Again at the same time as we've got an object in the sky above us after we had asked for that to happen.
Greg:It's interesting because I don't know if you picked it up, but at the parachat they were talking about, it's almost like the electromagnetic. I don't really understand how it works. But they were saying 3 milligrams change in your environment can affect the body. So you can start hallucin.
This was 27. It went up by. And it literally just spiked and went back down. You like. You say you can hear it on the clip.
We'll put the clips up and stuff like that. I might even try and splice it in here if. If we can. If we do, you'll hear it now.
Sarah:We will shortly be looking up into the sky to see if we can see you. So if you'd like to show yourself to us, please do so in whatever where you wish to welcome and join us in our circle.
Ash:Static Cam 2 had just captured a bizarre light in the sky which moves fast and gives off very little light source. This is not an insect or any other type of anomaly that can easily be explained.
Sarah:So if we just stay quiet now for the next couple of minutes and send those vibrations up to the sky.
Ash:Exactly nine seconds after the anomaly on static cam 2, my tri field meter registers a huge 25 milligau spike for no reason. And as we piece this together, it all starts to get very, very weird.
Sarah:Something very fast going up there, going across.
Ash:Oh, I see it, yeah. Got a satellite.
Sarah:That'S moving very quickly.
Greg:It is very quick. It's quick for a satellite, isn't it?
Sarah:It's a bit too quick for a.
Ash:Satellite, I would say.
Greg:But it's mad how when we were calling out for things, things were happening. We were seeing stuff in the sky where a priest cottage. Things were happening. And even on normal paranormal investigations, things happen.
It's like when we did the estus method at Castle Ring. And you got the blindfold on and one of the questions I asked was, can you name anybody in the group?
Ash:Yeah.
Greg:And you almost instantly go, abby. And Abby was with us. There was only three of us. It was me, you and Abby.
And for you to say Abby, when you don't know what the question is or even that a question was asked, that's the mad thing, is that's. And I think that's the great thing about Estes, is that you're. As the.
The vessel, or whatever you want, a receiver or whatever you want to call yourself, listening. You don't know what's happening apart from that words.
Ash:It's a very vulnerable position to be in. You have to trust the people. To be fair, I don't. This is the first time I met you. I don't know who you were in real life.
You could have been a right weirdo. We're in this middle field in the middle of the night, in the middle of Cannock Chase. And it's dark, it's night time, it's cold. I'm blindfolded.
I can't see what's going on. I can't hear what's going on. I've got the weird happening in my ears because it went weird doing this essence method. It went very, very. It went evil.
I will say I have talked about it previously. It's like, I don't know if it's still. You don't know if that people are still there. Like you two might have off and I'm left on my own.
Like you don't know what's happening. And it is quite a vulnerable.
Greg:Yeah.
Ash:Spot that you especially. I was outdoors.
Greg:Yeah. And that was a weird location as well where we were. We're in the middle of Castle Ring and it's. Anybody's been. It's like a. It's like a big.
It's a big circle.
Ash:Mound.
Greg:It's like a mound circle.
Ash:It's not burial mound, isn't it?
Greg:And we're in the middle like a crater, essentially.
Ash:Yeah.
Greg:Yeah. Now you're right to feel vulnerable and. But I think they're vulnerable. Being vulnerable. You. You definitely had some weird happen that night.
And we left shortly after that because it. It turned weird.
Ash:So we've been there all day as well, haven't we?
Greg:We had been.
Ash:We've got pissed on because it was pissing down.
Greg:Yeah.
Ash:Earlier on we got lost in the. In the forest.
Greg:Yeah. It was cold. I was.
We were at a low energy wise in terms of our own energy and probably we were a very heightened state because that crater, there's reports of black eyed children, portals, cryptids, pigmen, all sorts of stuff. And we're in there with as a group, first time we've ever been together and obviously we've spoken on podcast many times before that.
But it's a little bit different being in person. So it was all a very strange. Strange environment to be in and that I think it played on that the results we got were insane. So yeah.
That was like the Estes method.
Ash:We'll play that clip. We'll play that Abby clip.
Greg:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll play it now.
Ash:Do you know any of our names? Bobby.
Greg:What the.
Ash:Bobby.
Greg:So that's. That's kind of some of the Estes method across both paranormal and UAP and ufo.
And I think firsthand we've witnessed the power of it in both a paranormal investigation and across CE5 into a UFO investigation with results across both. So it's been. It's been mad.
Ash:Yeah. And kind of just to strip back, I guess very briefly that the estus technology, the spirit box itself, again like the Esters, is quite recent.
t was. It wasn't really until:And it was originally called Frank's Box. Not then developed because he was trying to communicate with the dead using radio frequencies.
Not then developed into spirit box SB7, SB11 that people use all the time now. But take it back even a step further and you talk about just kind of audio kind of investigation, stuff like that.
Because obviously you're hearing voices come through on Spirit Box and you're obviously hearing that out loud. So that's more kind of a DVP direct voice phenomena that you're hearing.
Whereas we've got to talk now about evp, which I'm sure again sure all our listeners will know. Electronic voice phenomena. Great film white noise. I that freaked me out so much as a kid. And that was it.
In years it might not be as scary, but as I remember it being, remember it being pretty scary when I was a kid. So we go back to kind of the origins of EVP and we're going to use some examples and kind of talk around this. So a bit of the history on it.
So take. So this is, this is:And it was Swedish researcher Frederick Jurgensen who first started recording sound and capturing his EVPs.
So how it all came about was he was recording songbirds using this is all obviously old timer technologies like tape to tape kind of audio equipment that he's recording. And he's listening back to these songbirds that he was recording. And you heard trumpets playing on the audio and he's like, why are the trumpets.
There are no trumpets loud recording this, like I don't know where this has come from and gives kind of a religious aspect to it kind of in kind of religious texts and stuff. Trumpets are like a precursor to something. Like something's coming or it's kind of like be alert.
So he, he took these trumpets in, in this audio to kind of tell him to keep looking. Like there's something to look for or to listen to in this audio. So that's what he did.
He kept recording, he kept getting his trumpets and then he started picking up these voices coming through. He's recording songbirds. We kept getting his voices coming through. The trumpets stopped. We kept getting these voices.
And he believed that he was communicating with UFOs or aliens on these tapes. And he. So that's where he started investigating. He was trying to. He's asking questions, he's getting his answers.
When he played it back and did so much that he released a book. And the book was called Voices, obviously in Swedish, but the English translation is Voices from Space.
with aliens. It wasn't until: Greg:That's mad.
Ash:In one of the audio. So he'd heard his mom talking to him through one of these audio captures.
That was when he totally sort of flipped switch and he thought maybe it's not aliens. Maybe it's actually humans or spirits of humans that I'm communicating with.
So he totally stopped commun thinking he's communicating aliens and concentrated on communicating with. With his mother and with the dead here. More on Earth. And this is what he became famous for. And he's quite well known.
You know any sort of history of evp. You know his name, you know his book and his second book, which again a lot more well known is Voices of the Deceased.
So you're going from Voices from space to Voices of the Deceased. That's just kind of. Not a lot of people know that. Even like I've heard talks where to talk about EVP and this sort of. The history of.
It sort of doesn't include the alien bit. It kind of starts it with recorded audio of his mum's voice.
Greg:And that came out on Saturday as well.
Ash:Yeah.
Greg:Because we both looked each other was like, I hope they didn't talk about aliens. So it's. It's mad that a lot of it is alien based. Especially when you think, well, I know it from Paranormal Investigations and it's classic.
EVP is a classic staple of the paranormal. So the origins from this guy to. To think initially, I wonder what made him think it was. I know the. You.
You talked about the trumpets and the precursor to Wallet. But why aliens? Why did he think it was aliens, I wonder?
Ash:I mean, I mean it's the 50s, so you kind of got. It's probably.
Greg:It's probably Space Invaders and you got.
Ash:Like quite a lot of sci fi.
Greg:Yeah.
Ash:So movies and stuff like that. So I think in popular culture. I think it was quite. Because you had royal in 47.
Greg:Yeah.
Ash:That kind of created a bit of the UFO frenzy after that. So that could be why.
Greg:But it's just interesting that you'd think. And people do talk about sky trumpets. I don't know if you. If you Google sky trumpets and YouTube it. There's lots of video.
Because it fascinates me why people hear this all over the world. Trumpets anyway. Trumpet sounds around the world. Just in the air. It's mad. But yes, the whole. A alien as well.
I'm never a fan of saying aliens now which is. I don't know why but have an entity of some kind. Non human entity, non human intelligence, whatever you want to call it.
I think to have like some kind of meaningful conversation. And it started with aliens and people's perceptions was it was aliens. And even with the Estes early on it was this.
This vampire from Saturn which couldn't be more alien. I think a lot of people in the paranormal wouldn't. Wouldn't know that. And I think we shocked a lot of people on Saturday talking about it.
Ash:Yeah. Because he was very heavily panel.
Greg:Yeah.
Ash:Like you said, it wasn't a UFO conference, it was a paranormal conference. It'll be the only ones that touched on anything that wasn't kind of more hauntings than all the other talkers.
But like I said, a lot of people asking questions coming up just afterwards. I hope we went well over our time because people kept asking questions, loads of questions.
I think it shows that people were listening and kind of wanting to know more, which is good.
I mean, I guess you also kind of have to look at the human side of things because with again with like when you see blurry images of things and people like I can see a face in this photo. It's like it's that pixelated. Can't see anything, mate. But you're using pareidolia.
Your brain searched out for recognizable things and it's a natural human brain thing to look for human faces because it's what it knows, it's what's familiar, it's what keeps us safe as other humans. Yeah, that's why your brain seeks out to sort of recognize these patterns and turn them into faces. And it's same with audio.
You've got audio paradolia and you'll anytime.
I hate when I'm watching the Panel investigation on YouTube or on Teller and they're going to play an EVP or they're going to play some footage back from spirit box or whatever and they put the words what they think it says on the screen before you've listened to it. So that's now influence your mind into listening for them words.
Whereas I'd rather they let you listen to it and sort of say what do you think this says? What Rather than telling you first.
Greg:Absolutely. And we've got a good clip about that, actually, let me, let me clear that up. So this is a clip. It's an experiment, actually.
Ash:It's a good example of audio pareidolia. Yeah.
Greg:Yeah, it is. Now this. Let me play it and see what you think it says. I think that's the. Let's hope it works. Can you hear that?
Ash:No.
Greg:Brilliant way there. You will now. Right. Oh, fuck's sake. To share to me. Please restart.
Ash:Let me share it. Can't hear you at all.
Greg:Let me stop sharing. Yeah, go on.
Ash:Don't mean share it. So listen to this first and then we'll see what you think it says. So this kind of experiment is called Brainstorm. Slash, green needle.
So go play it again. Think what you may, may have heard the first time. Listen. It's no prompting. Now think of the words green needle. So green needle.
So keep, keep that in your mind as I play it again and see what happens.
Greg:A green needle.
Ash:Definitely green needle. So now I'm going to play it again. Is that same clip this time? Brainstorm. Just be thinking in your mind. Brainstorm. As I play it again off.
Greg:I don't. I don't know.
Ash:How weird is it?
Greg:That's weird.
Ash:It doesn't sound anything like grenado now. It just sounds like brainstorm. I don't know how that.
I don't know how it works, but that's how your mind can be influenced by sort of the outside influences.
Greg:Yeah.
Ash:So I think when you're doing these experiments, when you're listening back to EVPs, you have to be so unbiased and like, get someone else listen to it, but don't tell them what you think it says. Let them listen to see if it matches what you think.
Greg:I think. Yeah, I. I can't figure out. I don't know how that. How that done it, but yeah, that's a. That's a really cool example of parrot, not pareidolia.
But if like say influencing, and that's why you shouldn't say what the EVP says.
Ash:Yeah, that's when I'm watching, like you said ghost events or something. They put it up, like, why. Let me, let me listen to it first. Now I'm not. I'm gonna be listening for that.
I'm not gonna listen, not gonna hear anything else because I'm now looking for these words.
Greg:Yeah. In the, in the footage, it never said get out until you put the words up on the screen saying get out. And now that's all I can hear.
Ash:Yeah.
Greg:So we've got another clip which is an EVP that I captured personally. Also, Castle, I won't tell you what it says.
Ash:Just fine.
Greg:And this, weirdly, this was the first time I'd ever used the spirit box. The first night I'd ever used a spirit box. I didn't really know how it worked or anything. And I got invited by my friend.
His son had, like, was ill and said, do you want to come on a ghost hunt at Oxford Castle? I was like, yeah, obviously, this is me brand new into the paranormal investigating.
And I was fortunate enough that I was getting a spirit box for like Christmas or something like that. And my ex said, do on your present early. So I was like, yeah, okay. It might have been birthdays and it was a spirit box.
So I didn't really even know how it worked or anything until I got there. And at that point, we're in a cell in Oxford Prison. I set it up and asked if anybody was there. And then this happened. See what you think.
Ash:Hello.
Greg:Now, obviously, for me and Ash, you can see I've put the words up on the screen, which goes against everything we just said. But. And also I mentioned it afterwards what I thought it said. The guy I'm with also says what he thinks.
And it's actually weird because at the time we both heard it fairly clearly. And it seems to be over a couple of sweeps as well. So I can say now that I think it said hello.
Ash:But yeah, I think it does. I mean, if you listen to it again, it's definitely a female voice.
Greg:Now, you know what I think it said?
Ash:True, I might have been influenced by the writing on the screen, but play again. Listen, MG Mines. Let's just go back to the meditative state.
Let's clear our minds, Forget the last 30 seconds of what we've been told and close your eyes. So you don't see the writing on the screen. But yeah, let's just listen to it again.
Greg:Hello. Now, bear in mind, we're actually in a cell in Oxford prison and the walls are super thick. The concrete. There was no other interference.
So if anybody's listened to spirit box and every now and again, you'll hear radio stuff happening. We are literally in fly zone for radio. It was literally dead noise. Those cells are super thick. I got no radio reception whatsoever.
And then that came through. That was the first night of even using the spirit box was, as you can imagine, I was a bit in awe.
Ash:But yeah, yeah, no, that's cool.
Greg:So that. That's a. That's a cool. Now you've got A super creepy one.
Ash:Yes. This is from an episode of Ghost Adventures. Not ghost event. Is Ghost Hunters. Yeah, Ghost Hunters. I think this is so weird. It's just creepy.
It's not totally clear. Well, it says it doesn't come up on the screen anything. So maybe try and listen to yourself and see what you think it says.
But it's just so, so creepy. And I would freak out if I was hearing this one. Let me just. So you hear the guy talking from Ghost Hunters first and then he's playing the clip.
Greg:Take a listen and see what you think, please.
Ash:All right, here we go.
Greg:You ready?
Ash:Are you angry about what happened?
Greg:Holy. You ready?
Ash:Yeah. I mean, it's terrifying. What the heck? Like you, you're in an empty room and you're sort of asking questions to the voice recorder.
You're listening back and that comes back through. It's like, like a young girl type. Doesn't sound happy at all. It's such a weird little clip.
Greg:I've seen horror films that have got those kind of sounds in and they never end well. That's horrible. Look at that guy's face. Obviously this is audio only, but look at the guy's face on the screen is just like.
He's got this kind of like thinking man pose going. What? What am I listening to?
Ash:That's in my house or the building that he's in, or whatever it is his property.
Greg:That's a meme right there. If everyone's in the mean, that's kind of like, I can't believe I'm hearing this in my own house.
Ash:I regret my life choices getting ghost hunters into my house.
Greg:I wish I'd never even heard those voices.
So, yeah, there's just some, some EVPs and a little bit of spirit box there for your pleasure that I don't now have to edit in because they were there, which is why we didn't do that on the other bits. I don't know.
So that's sort of a mini, mini deep dive into a bit of estes and an EVP with the parallels of CE5 seances and paranormal investigations and our own experiences of using the Estes method across both investigations.
Ash:So the thing is super interesting. Like one, the history of it all having this UFO slash alien history to him, which I never knew about. I don't think more people do.
Greg:And when you said to me, listen to this podcast, I turned it on and the first thing I was hit with was this over enthusiastic voice from the presenters. But then they said they would like, we're gonna deep dive with the. About the SS method and our friends, other guys that invented it.
I'm like, arm hooked now, even just at that bit.
And then they were talking and then knowing that they're the guys who done hellier as well, which I loved, and seeing them do Spirit box and Esther Smith at death on that, I was just like, this is an amazing episode. And it is.
Ash:It was.
Greg:I mean, you shouldn't be listening to any of a podcast apart from this, but actually that. That particular episode and the one before actually about spirit boxes and the Frank's Box is a really good.
I've only started listening to that recent. This week. But, yeah, it's. It's fascinating.
And then when you can understand a bit of the history and how it all developed, it's even more fascinating. They were sort of like, oh, let's. Let's try this. Oh, okay. And at one point, they. They were looking at proximity.
So the vessel, the person, the receiver with the headphones on, did it matter which room they were in? So they were the other side of the hotel. And it didn't quite work as well when there were comments coming through saying, I can't.
Can't see or can't hear you, those kind of things.
Ash:And it's just like we did that with. At the Stoke Haunting Museum, didn't we, with you?
Greg:Yes. Yes, we did. Now we're groundbreaking.
Ash:Ash, you were upstairs in the mortuary bit.
Greg:I was laying on the mortuary slab.
Ash:Yeah. With the spirit box headphones on. And all we had was. We basically called you. Yeah, I had the phone on speakerphone or whatever.
Greg:Yeah.
Ash:So we. So you. So we. But that was on. You muted.
Greg:No, you muted your side so I couldn't hear you, but you could hear me. So I could. So I was laying down on a mortuary slab on my own in the dark upstairs at Stoke Museum, listening to a spirit box. That's vulnerable.
That's vulnerable, Ash.
Ash:Fair play to you.
Greg:And you guys, big shout to Paramike and you guys are downstairs doing the calling out and asking the questions. That was nice. I forgot about that.
Ash:Did you have. Did you have to say something? Pulled your leg or your foot?
Greg:Weird was happening to me, so we.
Ash:Ran upstairs to help you because I'm. Just grabbed me or something.
Greg:Honestly, it's horrible up there on your own in the dark on a mortuary slab with headphones on and a blindfold. But literally that, like you say, you become super vulnerable at that point, and I think that's when you can. You Can. It's quite hypnotic as well.
That sound that depending how fast you sweep it and that becomes quite hypnotic and it just get. That's almost like the chant of a seance of C5 that kind of hypnoticy. Kind of.
Ash:Yeah. Again you have to kind of sort of become one. You have to forget everything else and just focus on that one thing.
Greg:Yeah.
Ash:And just so your mind's with it like again similar to your things where you need to be a part of it's become part of it. So then.
Greg:Yeah.
Ash:I was trying to invite in these voices or whatever is using it to communicate with us.
Greg:Yeah. It's mad. I hadn't thought about the fact that we'd done a lot of these experiments.
Ash:So we did it down here.
Greg:We don't necess method across the Internet as well. Didn't we? You're in Manchester and I'm down in Oxfordshire and man.
Ash:Let's do it again. We keep saying we're going to do it again.
Greg:Yeah. We do need to do it again.
The multi camera layout especially like by the time this goes out this week we were just like two or three weeks away from our fifth anniversary. It's five years since we've been doing this. So. Which is mad.
Ash:Yeah.
Greg:And going back then and we were doing stuff like that quite early on with the withiest method. So in fact.
Ash:Yeah. Because I is before I moved into this house it was in my old place. That's four and a half years ago at least.
Greg:That's mad.
Ash: because I moved here in April: Greg:Was it?
Ash:Yeah. So before then we did this.
Greg:Wow. I can't believe that. I can't remember what your old place looked like on camera now.
Ash:That is my bedroom in the old one.
Greg:That's mad. That's mad. So I hope everybody's enjoyed that episode. Not as much fun as I'm gonna have editing it. But it won't be too bad. Luckily. Fair.
Even though it's audio on the video that we are. I put my hand up a lot of the times to go there, there. So I've got my. I can scroll through visual clues.
Ash:Yeah. No, it's fun.
Greg:Yeah, it's fun.
Ash:I use a fun talk and something going to be developing into a longer talk. Looking at more aspects of the sort of parallels training UFO and ghost investigations.
The next time you're doing paranormal investigation when you use a spirit box or evp it may not be ghosts that you're talking to. You never know.
Greg:Absolutely.
